joewoodworker.com Trashes TAP
January 29, 2006I am not against websites or magazines posting reviews as long as they have an objective and unbiased opinion. JoeWoodworker.com is a commercial site that sells vacuum veneering products and is in direct competition with our patent-pending Thin Air Press system.
For over a year now, Joe Gorelski (Joe Woodworker himself) has posted a review about our Thin Air Press kit. Recently he added one individual’s response, which also happened to share his negative viewpoint.
As the manufacturer of an innovative product that simplifies, demystifies and makes the process of vacuum veneering affordable for woodworkers I am disappointed at Joe Woodworker. There is room for everyone in the industry and I see no need to write misleading statements about a competitor’s product. C’mon Joe! it doesn’t take 400 pumps to evacuate the air from one of our TAP bags.
I am posting this because there is no access to a forum or blog area on the Joewoodworker.com site where unbiased responses to Joe’s personal review or his selected postings can be aired without editorial control.
Feel free to post, good or bad, your comments about our kit here.
There are many quality publications and online websites that have done unbiased reviews about our product. These include:
American Woodworker February 2006
Women for Woodworking March 2006
Fine Woodworking Magazine August 2005
Woodcraft Magazine January 2006, January 2005
Silverfishlongboarding Consortium Review
Hugh R Skateboarding
Ted Hunter
Well I believe the kit belongs on the DO buy list!
That is if you’re interested in creating the longboard of your dreams. I’m not sure how long ago it was exactly but I guess it was about 3,5 years ago that I ordered the kit. I had some experience in woodworking (though I don’t think you’d need to). The first time I used the kit I made a board for myself.
I didn’t encounter any problems maintaining vacuum at al!
I’ve been riding that first deck intensely over the past years, and I have a hard time imagining anything more stressing for a laminated piece of wood than me bombing down a hill, not even mentioning the crashes a high speeds (which I’d rather forget
That board still looks great. No sign of de-lam, or other flaws, anywhere!
The kit was a great way to get started in the wonderful world of board building.
But it doesn’t have to end there. I’ve been using the TAP principle ever since, and I’ve build over 20 boards with it over the years. The process is simple and there is a lot of room for experimenting with creative new ways.
I’ve used it to laminate not only wood but aluminium, Plexiglas and carbon fibre in al sorts of shapes and sizes.
It sucks to see other people writing bad reviews for such a great product, only reason I can think for doing that, is that they must have some sort of hidden agenda.
Keep up the good work Ted!
Mike,
Comment by Administrator — January 30, 2006 @ 1:37 am
Well I believe the kit belongs on the DO buy list!
That is if you’re interested in creating the longboard of your dreams. I’m not sure how long ago it was exactly but I guess it was about 3,5 years ago that I ordered the kit. I had some experience in woodworking (though I don’t think you’d need to). The first time I used the kit I made a board for myself.
I didn’t encounter any problems maintaining vacuum at al!
I’ve been riding that first deck intensely over the past years, and I have a hard time imagining anything more stressing for a laminated piece of wood than me bombing down a hill, not even mentioning the crashes a high speeds (which I’d rather forget
That board still looks great. No sign of de-lam, or other flaws, anywhere!
The kit was a great way to get started in the wonderful world of board building.
But it doesn’t have to end there. I’ve been using the TAP principle ever since, and I’ve build over 20 boards with it over the years. The process is simple and there is a lot of room for experimenting with creative new ways.
I’ve used it to laminate not only wood but aluminium, Plexiglas and carbon fibre in al sorts of shapes and sizes.
It sucks to see other people writing bad reviews for such a great product, only reason I can think for doing that, is that they must have some sort of hidden agenda.
Keep up the good work Ted!
Mike,
Comment by Mike — January 30, 2006 @ 1:40 am
We have been using a Roarockit kit for close to a year now and its been a wild ride. We’ve been able to experiment and take everything we had on paper into the real world. It was well worth the minor investment to make all our own boards and make some extra money selling them. We recently started a racing team and are looking forward to giving some people a run for their money using construction techniques and methods we forged on our TAP press from Ted. Ted and Norah have helped us through this journey in every possible human way, they are both super people who want to get their excellent product out there and into the hands of people who would like to take a crack at making their own deck (EVERYONE). Thank you Ted for producing the Roarockit kit and keep working hard to get it out there, it opened up many avenues of exploration and its been a BLAST! We wouldn’t be able to make and do the things we do without Ted and his Kits, if you are looking for a new project or just want to try your hand at building and shaping get one of these kits and give’er a try!
Chris Barrett
Skurfskates.net
Comment by Chris Barrett — February 3, 2006 @ 9:43 pm
First off the Roarockit kit is a must have for any serious woodworker, or for those people who want to try, and succeed at making there own Boards. I First tried the roarockit because it was a cheap and easy way to try out longboard building, as the kit supplied everything you needed to make a board (except skate hardware but thats an obvious one as every one has different tastes on what equipment they like) and made it an easy process to do, unlike the harder traditional clamp, jig/mold method. So i have to credit Ted and Norah on getting me hooked on board building. Even thoe i have now upgraded to a full on vacuum system to handle bigger projects and uncut board blank pressings, i still use my roarockit kit for glueing down the Fancy veneers that i use for my boards finishes, as its way easier to set up this little kit compared to my bigger system.
So as i said previously if your a serious woodworker or want to try your hand at boardbuilding this is the kit for you.
Comment by Kyle Mckenzie — February 3, 2006 @ 10:34 pm
The World Ain’t Flat.
It used to be that people believed the world was flat.
Go beyond the edges of known civilization and demons awaited you.
I guess that it is just human nature that whenever someone comes up with a radical new idea that there will be those that will throw stones at it.
When I first heard of Roarockit’s Thin Air Press I too was pretty sure that it was a scam. I mean how could something that cost just fifty bucks possibly do what I was using machines costing tens of thousands of dollars.
However when I teach technology to high school students I try to get them to work smarter, not harder. So I gave it a try.
And I can tell you that it works just fine.
Since December, about 80 students at my high school have successfully made their own skateboards using the Thin Air Press and had a great time doing it.
And I think anyone would have to agree that if inexperienced 14 year olds can make this thing work, then anyone else can as well.
The next few years will see a revolution in amateur woodworking because of this simple vacuum bag setup opening up the world of veneering.
The world ain’t flat!
Woodworking as we know it has turned a corner, and there are no demons living there - just a wonderful world of opportunity awaits.
Comment by Peter Boeckh — February 5, 2006 @ 2:54 pm
JOE WOODWORKER DESPERATELY NEEDS A DOCTOR!
It seems to me that if a grown man needs 400 pumps to work a TAP kit then he should be worried about his bad state of health! I’ve used the TAP kit many times with hardly any effort and achieved enough vacuum with no problems.
If i can offer Joewoodworker a little medical advice, i’d say the stress of professional jealousy and burden of ill will towards others have made the poor dear weak. I think he should eat properly and get a little sunshine and exercise on his skateboard.
What’s that Joe? YOU DON’T HAVE A SKATEBOARD? maybe you should buy one of the skateboard kits from roarockit and get a little fun in your life. And if you find the pumping too hard i’m sure there are some kids in your neighbourhood who can give you a hand.
Comment by chrissy faey — February 18, 2006 @ 1:43 am
JOE CHANGES REVIEW
On the 23 of February I checked the Joewoodworker.com site and found that the Roarockit review had been updated. I feel there are still inaccurate statements within his review that need to be addressed.
Here is a copy of Joe’s original posting as recorded by Wayback website.
Roarockit Review Feb 04 2005
From his posts, I have selected a number of quotes from both the past and present posting of the review on our TAP kit. The comments I have added after his quotes are my opinion about his statements.
Joe says: I’ve removed the video because it shows the name of my business in the copyright information.
What he doesn’t tell you is that he also removed this quote that was positioned right above the video; The Ugly: Me… having a heart attack after 4 minutes of madly pumping a plastic vacuum pump. I need to get off this computer and onto an exercise bike. Sheesh.
I bet Joe’s lawyer rapped his knuckles on that one. Sure sounds like he is saying our kit has the potential of giving him a heart attack, especially when it is positioned above a video of him using the pump and falling over. Not a good thing to say about anyone’s product if it is not true.
Joe says: I’ve moved this article to a page that has no other links to any of my personal or business websites.
Has Joe not noticed his web address at the top of the page? www.joewoodworker.com Is this not the same address as Veneer Supplies and Joewoodworker?
Joe says: By pump #125, the gauge needle registered 5″ of hg. I wanted to get 21″ which is generally considered to be an acceptable level of vacuum for standard veneer glue. Two hundred and seventy-five pumps later, the needle read 21″ of hg. Phew. Stop the clock! Three and half minutes and 400 pumps of the handle brought the bag to 21″.
The hardest part is getting from 18″ of hg to 21″. It takes about 75 pulls on the vacuum plunger to get that last little bit of pressure. As you can imagine, even a motorized pump pulls vacuum slowly at these higher pressures.
This does not accurately reflect the number of pumps or time it takes to evacuate the air from our TAP bag. It takes less than a minute of pumping to evacuate the air from the bag when pressing one of our skateboards. If you are pressing a flat subtrate like plywood with a layer of veneer, the time to evacuate the air from the bag decreases dramatically as there is little air in the bag to begin with.
Joe, isn’t it time you remove the obviously biased review of our kit from your site and get on with providing the solid, informative information on the quality products you do sell?
Ted Hunter
Roarockit Skateboard Company
Comment by Administrator — February 23, 2006 @ 2:23 pm
I don’t see how joewoodworker.com is in direct competition with this product. First off the site only sells parts to make electric veneering systems and products that are required for such work. Secondly, the items on the joewoodworker site, actually work. I have been in the veneering industry for 30 years. We recently tried one of your pumps hoping for the best for small projects. We were extreamely dissapointed. I would not recommend this system to our competition. I would like to say that your system sucks, but that’s the problem, too much work and an unmaintainable vaccum.
Comment by Sean Grifter — April 4, 2006 @ 11:07 pm
If you have a look at some of the posts on this blog You will find links to a lot of people building great things using our kits. You may want to check some of them out if you have time.
Ted
Comment by Administrator — April 5, 2006 @ 3:36 am
I purchased the kit to do some veneering of MDF panels for an end table I was building and I must say not only did I save alot of money by using this system it also performed much better than I anticipated. The number of pumps it took to evacuate the air from a 20″ x 19″ x 3/4″ panel was at most 50. I don’t even think it was that many to be honest. I love this product…the only thing I was disappointed about was that after I purchased the kit and larger bag from Woodcraft that they started offering the larger bag as a kit also…
Bob Weiss
Comment by Bob Weiss — May 21, 2006 @ 3:22 pm
I agree with the perception that Joe believes he is above this manual stuff and that is truly for amatuers. On the other hand Ted is coming of as some spoiled and bratty child who didn’t like what someone says about his product he is going to stomp his feet and hold his breath till he gets his way. Roarockit and Joe woodworker.com both believe in blowing sunshine up the 5.5 hole and not show negative comments. I find it hard to believe I am the only one in these United States who is making little or no headway. I have followed every link I could possibly find for a remedy and watched a those mediocre how to videos and came to the conclusion I will take everything back to Woodcraft get my refund and use it as a downpayment on a vacuum pump. Rest easy Ted, I will not buy it off of Joe WW
Comment by Fed up with both sides — June 14, 2006 @ 11:28 am
I am sorry to hear about your problems with our kit. I checked my email to see if you had written to ask for a hand. Did you write? Usually problems that people have with the kit have a simple fix.
One question I ask when people write is what color of paper was on the sealing tape that came with your kit. Was it white or brown? Some stores still have old stock that include a very aggressive sealing tape that is hard to use. If it is the white paper on the tape, it is the old stuff and I will gladly replace it for you if you have not taken the kit back.
I understand your comments about the posting on my blog about joe’s review. Because of my posting, his review of our kit has been dramatically altered for the better since it was first put on line.
I made no comments on our site, about joe’s review for almost a year then I noticed he was beginning to solicit and post one sided comments written by others about our kits. This is when I decided he was using unethical tactics and in my opinion, had gone to far. It is one thing to write a review of a product but it is another thing to solicited and post negative comments of a product without any way for an individual to defend the comments being made. . Would you not be upset if someone did this to something you worked on?
My blog posting provides what joe’s site did not, a transparent way for anyone to comment about our product.
Ted
Comment by Administrator — June 14, 2006 @ 6:50 pm
I find all the posts on this website and the review at JWW very interesting. I own the kit and use it only for woodworking. I have not made a ton of stuff and what I have made has been small. I find that the kit works just fine for my purposes.
There are a couple of things that should be stated though:
I did upgrade by making press boards (the boards with the grooves in the back to keep the work piece flat. I did have some trouble with the bag not holding a vacuum but found out that was due to me not sealing the bag well. Mine came with the white covered tape and apparently they are offering a better tape now. I have used Titebond II glue as well, not normal veneering glue. TB II sets faster so if you are doing small parts and you do loose vacuum the chances of you wrecking your work are less. Just be FAST and careful when you are putting your work piece into the bag. I plan to upgrade to a sealing system (basically a long wooden clamp) in the near future, this should eliminate this problem.
I have had problems with pulling a vacuum but just taking the hand pump off and re-seating it has taken care of that problem. I have a feeling that is the problem that JWW ran into since when I have re-seated it has not taken more that 15 pumps (remember small parts) to get the pump to where it “feels” like there is full vacuum. I do not have a gauge so I cannot confirm this, however I can state that I have never had a problem with one of my completed projects. If I ever get around to it I will buy a gauge and test it out. That would be interesting to see. I do find it interesting that roarockit has not disputed any of the readings that JWW took. I would ask the question as to how long it took a trained professional (a roarrockit employee) to pull 18” of vacuum and then 21” of vacuum.
Now I have not tried large projects but I would assume that the pump time would increase. This may make this kit unacceptable for much larger application such as a tabletop but we will see. I have to order a bigger bag to do this.
Comment by Matt — July 5, 2006 @ 3:37 pm
I just bought one of these the other day to make veneered panels for subwoofer enclosures. I didn’t know this product existed and was spending most of my time looking for a shop that would do it for me. I don’t want to buy an electric setup, nor do I have any interest in building one. I just want to veneer panels. And I did. Last night I did my first panel and it turned out great. I should of used a little more glue, but thats another review.
****************HINT**************
If you are too lazy to pump the air out, use your natural pump: your mouth and lungs. put your lips over the nozzle, squeeze it and suck the air out. Very easy, and completely heterosexual.
Comment by Mark Chandler — July 23, 2006 @ 8:28 pm
Get off your highhorse, open your mind, and try correcting the issues that “evil joe’ mentioned. geez, what a baby.
Comment by alex — September 26, 2006 @ 6:58 pm
Thank for your opinion Alex. At least you are able to leave a comment on our site about topics posted.
Ted
Comment by Administrator — October 11, 2006 @ 7:19 pm
I’m curious what it is that’s patented about this system.
People have been making manual vacuum pumps (out of old-style bike pumps) for a long time.
Is the novelty just applying it to vacuum bagging? Or is there something special about this particular manual vacuum pump, or perhaps the way it’s connected to the bag?
I am in no way dissing your product, by the way. It seems like a sensible inexpensive way to go about vacuum bagging small things.
Comment by drcrash — June 17, 2007 @ 2:40 am
I have a suggestion for a simple improvement.
One potential problem with any vacuum bagging system that doesn’t have a continous or automatic pump is that even a very slight leak or just outgassing from resins can degrade the vacuum in the bag. The volume of air left in the bag after you pump it down is near zero, so just a slight amount of gas can increase the air pressure in that tiny space (i.e. reduce the vacuum level) significantly.
One way to fix that is to make the space in the bag a bit bigger, with a vacuum reservoir. the reservoir increases the effective space in the bag a lot, so that leaks or outgassing degrade the vacuum that much more slowly.
It seems to me that with a TAP, you could just use a longer bag than necessary, and put a mason jar with a hole in the lid INSIDE THE BAG. You’d have to pump the air out of that jar when you evacuated the bag, but once you did, it would serve as a reservoir, sucking up any fumes or leaked air. The vacuum would degrade much more slowly that way. You’d likely maintain nearly your maximum vacuum several times longer, and/or need to top off the vacuum (by pumping) several times less often.
Comment by drcrash — June 18, 2007 @ 1:40 am
Hi Drcrash
Our patent is on the process for making a skateboard using the components that are included in our TAP system.
Yup you are right! Vacuum bagging has been around forever and is not patentable but the process of making a skateboard deck using a manual vacuum pump with a one way valve attached to a vacuum bag to press pre-cut layers over a foam mold has not.
Our kit was created to simplify vacuum veneering. We did this by taking away the connectors, hoses, electric pump, reservoir tanks and valves that are normally associated with vacuum veneering.
There are always tradeoffs when one tries to simplify a process. With our vacuum system you cannot plug the pump in to the wall and walk away from it. You have to keep any eye on it for a few minutes.
This trade off saves one having to buy all pipes and fittings of a conventional vacuum system.
Internal off gassing of the epoxy resulting in loss of vacuum has never been a problem with our kits. If the TAP bags are sealed properly once the air is pulled out there is not an appreciable loss in vacuum while epoxies cure.
Hope this answers your questions.
Ted
Comment by Administrator — June 18, 2007 @ 1:46 pm
I’m in the middle of dealing with Joe and his kit and it is a painful process. He shipped me a kit a year ago and it was short parts. He will not respond to emails - not even a “screw you”. My fault for waiting a year to build the kit. The mistakes were simply stupid. 8 times more of one part then needed, but short several others. The kit is supposed to include 3/8 ID tubing…. it was all 1/4 ID.
Comment by Jeff G — October 4, 2007 @ 3:54 am
I have just tried your tap for the first time and have experienced nothing but disappointment. THe bag quite simply would not seal properly. I am in australia and went to a huge amount of trouble to source veneers for skateboards only to have my project ruined by a valve that simply didnt seal properly. The only way I could get a continuous vacuum was by attaching the vacuum cleaner tyo the valve with duct tape. Unfortunatly the smell of burning that became apparent after a few minutes prompted me to turn it off and to accept the loss of my veneers. I have made several skateboards in the past utilising the tried and tested but very labourious method of two part moulds. I would rather spend longer and get a good result than waste my time and materials on a gimic.
Sorry but I can’t find a single good thing to say about this piece of junk
Comment by Iain — November 24, 2007 @ 3:50 am
Hi Iain
I am sorry for the problems you encountered building your deck with our Thin Air Press system.
Over the past 5 years Norah my wife and I have personally used our kit to teach hundreds of people how to make skateboards with very few problems.
The process is also being used by other teachers and individuals all over the world with great success. Our kits are sold by almost all the major woodworking retail companies across North America and in your case Australia. All of these companies tested our kits rigorously before offering them to their customers without any problems.
The instructions you received with your kit clearly says “BEFORE YOU START…. Please read these instructions carefully! We recommend doing a DRY RUN of the laminating process before applying ANY glue.”
Vacuum laminating, to say the least is a tricky procedure. Like most processes the more experience you have with the process the less chance there is for making mistakes. This is why we clearly inform people to do a dry run before committing glue to expensive veneers. This advise would have given us a good chance of solving the problem before it became an issue.
Most leakage problems occur when the sealing tape is not pressed together properly. I suspect this was the cause of the problem you encountered. There is an instructional video of how to do this correctly on our Roarockit website. When sealing your TAP bag pay attention to the two beaded seams. The sealing tape should be pressed firmly into where the seamed vinyl meets. The tape when properly sealed should look black along the length of the seal. Look for white gaps in the tape where air leakage can occur. It is simple to press them out using finger pressure.
After viewing the video, if the TAP bag and valve is still usable (vacuum cleaner and duct tape may have damaged the valve) I suggest trying a test run, without glue on some scrap material. If you continue to have problems email me at ted@roarockit.com and we will gladly send you a new replacement TAP bag. There is a serial number printer on the side of the box your TAP bag came in that you will need to include in your email.
Ted
Comment by Administrator — November 24, 2007 @ 5:01 pm